If you’re like other human beings… (you like that inclusion statement? do yah?)

… then you’ve probably changed your mind once or twice.

Believe it or not, I too am human, and I have also changed my mind once or twice.

In fact, that’s how I came to be the squishy loveable copywriter you know today.

Long, long ago in a galaxy far far away – I used to have an SEO business.

I made my clients some good internet monies, built and flipped a few affiliate websites, and along the way realized one very important life lesson…

… I freakin’ HATE doing SEO.

I do well with words and human brains – algorithms and AI robots, not so much.

I mean… my boyfriend had to teach me how to turn on our new oven – that’s how much I don’t do technology.

So I sold all of my affiliate sites on Empire Flippers, transferred all of my clients to a talented and trusted SEO friend who I knew would do a great job, and returned to something I had a ton of experience in and knew I was really good at.

You guessed it – Writing sales copy.

But I didn’t want to lose all the hard work and authority I had built up in the SEO world, so I started an agency that provided SEO-optimized sales copy to SEOs and affiliate marketers (makes sense, right?)

Well that took off like a freaking turbo rocket, because lo’ and behold – SEOs sucked at talking to real human beings just like I sucked at talking to Google algorithms.

We filled a huge gap in the market since it was rare that someone understood the conversion side of things AND could optimize the copy to bring in long-term, organic traffic.

Fast forward to today – where I’ve realized I love managing a large team of people about as much as I love managing algorithm robots  –  and these days I mostly just consult with SEOs and Agencies so I can spend the bulk of my time doing what I really love (you guessed it again – writing sales copy)

But I still can’t help myself when an SEO starts asking me about copywriting and conversion.

It kills me that a lot of these guys have tons of traffic flowing into their site and can’t figure out how to turn those browsing eyeballs into buyers.

So whenever I get a chance to talk to the SEO world about persuasive copy – it’s almost as exciting as when someone cancels dinner plans I secretly didn’t want to go to in the first place.

That’s why I LOVED recording this interview with Moon Hussain from Rule Your Rankings.

Not only is she a badass chick killing it in the big-bad-boys-club of SEO (always fun to watch) – but she’s also a well-rounded marketer who understands the value of good copy.

Check out our interview below to learn more about:

– why I shut down a successful, 6-figure agency
– the sustainable way to get better clients or scale an agency
– how we generated sales when we were just starting out and knew jack-squat
– dealing with trolls and finding your tribe so you can lean on a supportive community
– how to design, build, and run systems that you can trust
– the quick way to scale a new product or agency
– and also get some perspective from both sides of the traffic-and-conversion coin

And here are some followup questions we chatted about in Moon’s Facebook Group

Hi Rachel! Part of the reason I’m doing this is so people can see all walks of digital entrepreneurs at various levels, doing work they love and living life on t heir own terms. You are thriving with copywriting but let’s rewind to the days Rachel didn’t know what the heck she was doing. What mistakes did you make?

I used to constantly underquote for projects, and would work my butt off and still end up broke because I didn’t know how to quote properly.

I started as a freelancer that tried to be everything to everyone – I did web design, SEO, content marketing.

And eventually had an agency that did well.

But I always went back to content and sales copy, which is what I’m really great at and most comfortable with.

And having the SEO background combined with the copy knowledge was a killer combination that was really valuable to affiliate marketers

So I opened an agency providing SEO optimized sales copy to affiliate marketers, and that was fantastic and very successful – but I realized I didn’t love running an agency and that affiliate marketers weren’t the ideal market for upscale sales copy.

So I had to make the adjustment and move back to full time freelancing as a direct response copywriter. And now I’m so much happier and really loving the process of running my business.

Can we go over a couple of examples of some common mistakes you see people make on their affiliate sites or even for product launches/funnels?

Trying to get people to do too many things at once, or giving people too many choices. It’s important to choose one main objective for each of your pages, and clear out anything that would give people an opportunity to click away or get distracted.

So don’t try and get someone to click through to read your full review AND get them to click through to buy the same product on Amazon. Choose one for your landing page and stick with that. You can always have separate pages for the other objectives.

So, Rachel, in case you don’t know: you’re the first female entrepreneur I’m interviewing for our show. In your opinion, why don’t we see as many female SEOs, copywriters, digital entrepreneurs “talking” in Facebook groups?

Well, it’s changing rapidly, but it’s certainly still a bit of a boys club. But I think it’s important to recognize that not all communities and circles are the same, and you need to find the community that fits your personal and professional culture.

So go where you’re treated best, and just ignore everyone else who’s not welcoming you. There’s no need to fight or try and justify yourself in a community which isn’t being welcoming and receptive. And it’s important to not get defensive, because anyone who’s trolling is really just having issues with themselves and it’s very rare that it has anything to do with you.

Whether this was during your SEO agency run or whenever, do you remember any moments, in hindsight, that if they had not occurred, you wouldn’t be here? Or a huge mishap or bad client review that left you feeling like you were ‘done’?

Well fortunately for me, one thing that I was always good at doing was seeking outside help if I got in over my head. So … I wouldn’t necessarily recommend this because there’s smarter ways of doing things, but if I got in too deep, then I would hire an outside expert to consult with me about a project.

And I didn’t care if it went over budget and I ended up paying out of my own pocket. Delivering value and results to my clients as more important to me.

But there were many times dealing with trolls that got to me. And handling that just came with experience and time, and learning that you’re not going to please everyone, and that really, you shouldn’t try to.

Just focus on providing value as much as possible. And always be teaching what you know. Your tribe will come to you.